Episode 24 - Nano - Small Coin, Big Impact with George Coxon

My name is George Coxon and I am director of a Nano foundation and director of Appia

Cool. Well thank you for being on the show, George, it’s a pleasure to speak to you. I think this all started because we got in touch with each other via LinkedIn as well. Mostly because we, I mean, Sam and I are pretty obsessed with crypto. We talk about it on our new show on a weekly basis. It’s really a pleasure to have somebody on the show who might be able to give us more insight into what it’s like actually on the other side, inside a currency. I’d love to know more about your background, but perhaps let’s start with Nano. So what is Nano exactly?

So Nano is a sustainable digital currency with ultra fast transactions and zero fees. If it’s a centralized secure network. Just like cash in your pocket, Nano is digital money. Simple as that. 

You’ve done that before. 

How can you tell? 

I was interested to learn more about Nano because I think one of the, certainly a lot of benefits in comparison to something like Bitcoin, because there certainly seems to be a lot of comparisons out there. You obviously have a subreddit as well, which were talking about just as you, as we joined the podcast and were setting up. So, I mean, that’s going particularly well. You have a very vibrant community. Can you talk to us about the benefits, the differences between Bitcoin versus Nano? 

Yeah, so, I mean, Nano was initially designed, having been watching. I, our found a column had watched a Bitcoin and been very excited about the possibility of digital money. Obviously Bitcoin was the vehicle towards the kind of the weld understanding the potential of digital money in that realm. Unfortunately with Bitcoin as kind of a first mover and shaker, and the space has some problems when it comes to being actual digital money and digital cash, whether that’s speed fees and energy consumption. That’s something that we tried to fix with Nano is making a green, sustainable currency with zero fees and instantaneous transactions. Instead of waiting an hour for a Bitcoin transaction, you are now waiting on average 1.2 seconds before a transaction to be filling firms across the globe with zero fees. That’s really what we’re trying to do is just be a peer-to-peer digital currency where Bitcoin is more of a store of value. 

I think these days due to the time and fees and bolt. 

So, there’s a lot of stuff going on right now about Bitcoin and it’s been really popular, I guess for the first half of the year, there’s been a huge rise in its popularity, but certain things that have happened more recently, I’ve seen of a decline. I think China’s just shut off like 90% of its mining, which...

My name is George Coxon and I am director of a Nano foundation and director of Appia

Cool. Well thank you for being on the show, George, it’s a pleasure to speak to you. I think this all started because we got in touch with each other via LinkedIn as well. Mostly because we, I mean, Sam and I are pretty obsessed with crypto. We talk about it on our new show on a weekly basis. It’s really a pleasure to have somebody on the show who might be able to give us more insight into what it’s like actually on the other side, inside a currency. I’d love to know more about your background, but perhaps let’s start with Nano. So what is Nano exactly?

So Nano is a sustainable digital currency with ultra fast transactions and zero fees. If it’s a centralized secure network. Just like cash in your pocket, Nano is digital money. Simple as that. 

You’ve done that before. 

How can you tell? 

I was interested to learn more about Nano because I think one of the, certainly a lot of benefits in comparison to something like Bitcoin, because there certainly seems to be a lot of comparisons out there. You obviously have a subreddit as well, which were talking about just as you, as we joined the podcast and were setting up. So, I mean, that’s going particularly well. You have a very vibrant community. Can you talk to us about the benefits, the differences between Bitcoin versus Nano? 

Yeah, so, I mean, Nano was initially designed, having been watching. I, our found a column had watched a Bitcoin and been very excited about the possibility of digital money. Obviously Bitcoin was the vehicle towards the kind of the weld understanding the potential of digital money in that realm. Unfortunately with Bitcoin as kind of a first mover and shaker, and the space has some problems when it comes to being actual digital money and digital cash, whether that’s speed fees and energy consumption. That’s something that we tried to fix with Nano is making a green, sustainable currency with zero fees and instantaneous transactions. Instead of waiting an hour for a Bitcoin transaction, you are now waiting on average 1.2 seconds before a transaction to be filling firms across the globe with zero fees. That’s really what we’re trying to do is just be a peer-to-peer digital currency where Bitcoin is more of a store of value. 

I think these days due to the time and fees and bolt. 

So, there’s a lot of stuff going on right now about Bitcoin and it’s been really popular, I guess for the first half of the year, there’s been a huge rise in its popularity, but certain things that have happened more recently, I’ve seen of a decline. I think China’s just shut off like 90% of its mining, which we would, were just talking about seminar on new Shirley of the week. How, how much is the success of Nano or smaller cryptocurrencies tied to Bitcoin? Because they’ve been very closely pegged for a while. 

Yeah, it’s an interesting question. I mean, I think there’s two kind of facets here first is in the market and then the price and with Bitcoin being kind of the most popular most well known, and the first mover in this space obviously will have kind of a larger following, but there always needs to be room for innovation and improvement there in my mind anyway, with Bitcoin and with Nano, I think there has to be a, a first mover, which Bitcoin was the, has to be forthcoming innovation around it. The Nano’s price, unfortunately is an, the market is all reliant on Bitcoin due to the huge market. Capita has currently, I think we’ve all seen it on tweet that crashed the markets and especially the Bitcoin market due to energy consumption for Tesla. I think that shows just how deep speculation, how easy the crypto market is to be manipulated and moved. 

Obviously, but Nano, we are, we’re trying to be a real world currency. We don’t really partake in the respective markets as much as kind of other organizations and foundations may do. Our real focus is in the real world and real world utility and not really in the treating aspect of Nano or crypto assets. 

How do you see that being utilized then? Because I think, some places are starting to take crypto payments. How has that, how’s that working for you? What are you doing to try and get out there and make sure that all the organizations well, that it will, that the Nano can be used as a cryptocurrency and then how do you actually compete against all of the others? Cause there’s a plethora of cryptocurrencies. 

Yeah, I actually, I think I looked down there’s 10,000, 246 or something, tokens and assets listed on coin market cap. 

That’s incredible. I actually, I was going to go for like, 110,000. 

Plus, and it’s all increasing and as wonderful and as impressive, the innovation around all these tokens and assets are and our minds and Nana foundation and with Nano, we truly believe in fixing a real-world problem. What we do at Nano is we work very closely with organizations to make sure and to find solutions to problems that organization might currently have. For instance, we are working with the people on the ground in Lebanon right now, who can’t get money in and out of the country due to the economical and humanitarian crisis, that’s gonna be going on them. I think the limit of a, an ATM withdrawal is around $200 a month, which is just not feasible for an economy to move forward. What we’re doing is we’re working with people on the ground there and using Nanos cross-border capabilities and speed and lack of fees to be able to get money in and out of that country. 

With us, we focus on real world utility and working with the people who actually have a need for Nano. It’s not just a nice to have kind of, 

Well, I was talking a couple of years ago with an organization that was setting up to go after that a bank, a FinTech, that was going after that market, really that international payments, because I think it had been stated by Forbes that it was like a multi-trillion dollar area of the market that wasn’t really being used or exploited at all. How does, I can see obviously if you’re going after that area, but with zero fees, how does Nano fund itself, how does that work? 

We have, you had an interesting, and our distribution story I think is pretty amazing and that all comes back to our funding and how we currently fund ourselves. When, instead of when the most of the market had an ICO initial coin offering and our minds that only benefits those people, that capital, and that really is the antithesis of why cryptocurrency was designed. What we did is we created an online websites and anyone, and everyone could jump online to that website that can keep Google captures, the 12 boxes you get presented with and you have to choose the three bridges or the bicycles. It’s a very laborious task, but therein lies. The secret is that this method benefits. Those people that have the most time and that time was worth at least on a global scale. That’s how we managed to create truly organic communities where Nano there was a need for it. 

That was an Indonesia and the Philippines in Venezuela, Brazil and continental Africa. That really is the foundation behind Nano it’s around real world needs and utility. That’s kind of how we separate ourselves, but when it comes to how we fund the non foundation, when we closed off this faucet, after two years, we kept the equivalent of $700,000 worth of money. And that’s it. We are not-for-profit foundation and three and a half, maybe four years later, we have 2.5 plus million dollars worth of Nano having never taken a profit or revenue in. Maintaining our, not for profit status, we are a very lean, hardworking Timo, all overworked and underpaid, but we all do it due to the passion that we have for Nano and really changing the world for better. If anyone does it better than us, we will join them because it is about making a markable and tangible improvements. 

Those people that really need it rather than those, that it’s nice to have. 

Wow. That’s incredible. How has that 700,000, you said this now, And that’s just grown because of the popularity of Nano the value of Nano. 

Yeah. So stamps the market as well. We have never been frivolous at all and we are incredibly streamlined. Our only costs are payroll and service really, and then legal on top of that, which unfortunately my sizable. 

Chunk has to have legal, 

Especially in our space. So we are just incredibly lean. Greed has no place inside our foundation or inside our team. Anyone who has not given off that impression or is doing this for their in self serving benefits has found that there isn’t really a place for them within the foundation. It is all about doing something better for the wider world. 

That’s what makes it a foundation, I guess. Right. 

Exactly. Yeah. We are people first and that really is it’s just that we hire people based on themselves and their passion, their drive, their grit and stamina. You can teach everything else that you can’t teach that kind of thing. 

It was that w was that planned then that it would grow and that was going to be how you would fund it, or is that just look, 

It’s been terrifying, no fun at all. That, that kind of number was kept, we didn’t have a team formed, we didn’t have any entities or anything like that. That was Colin by himself. I think panicking being the only person involved in Nano formerly roadblocks at the time, but with us, we it’s definitely been a trial and very challenging and testing, but it’s something that we’ve been trying to keep as pure as possible. We had the option to fundraise if we need to, but we’ve never had to go down that route. We’ve definitely had some scary times during the last bear markets where we, I think were under a dollar for about a year and a half. Actually were looking to close down the foundation last December, this March, because that’s how tight were with kind of, moving forward colonized, we’re going to continue working and we’re going to move into a lot more of an open source Linux foundation kind of style, but luckily the price rose and we’ve managed to remain incredibly careful with our funds. 

That’s why, on top of that, we don’t market. It’s the same extent we focus on making a true currency. We keep our heads down where the kind of kid at school, at high school, that’s the nerdy one that doesn’t partake in the parties. When they leave school, they’re the ones that, become a high flyers. 

See, that’s a good analogy. I like it. I think we miss something in there though. You, you mentioned that there was a former name, actually. 

Yes. Ray blocks. People like to mispronounce it and we’ll manage the terms of rye Ray, but yeah, Ray blocks was the initial name chosen by Colin back in the day, down to the islands where they had raised stones, that was their form of currency. Actually I was involved before I joined Nano foundation. I, myself and my brother actually created an online digital wallet, the first one for Nano called Capri. That’s still my Reddit name today, which I’m sure you’ll see around and about, 

There we go. Insight. And so where did Nano come from? 

Nano was a, an rebranding that needed to happen due to the complexity. I think of the name Ray blocks Nano with, obviously it’s a measurement, it’s small, it’s light, it’s fast. That’s really what we wanted to be perceived as that is the facets behind Nano, the currency. Obviously we do have, at the beginning we have some SEO issues. It is a very generic name, but the point is that we want Nano to feel so ubiquitous to your everyday life. It is a name that you feel fits into your everyday politics really. And that’s really what it’s the company. 

No, I think this is a good name. I mean, how do you H how you must have gone through cycle of a huge number of names? I’m sure it’s so difficult naming things. 

Yeah, exactly. And especially a world currency as well. It’s, it’s definitely a challenge, but we’re actually about to release and we’ve thrown some Easter eggs out there, our actual, our current design. We are releasing a currency sign that will fit alongside the dollar sign, the pound sign, and the yen bit point of being the only currency that had managed to do that. And that’s it. 10 years to get them to Unicode, we will be releasing as very shortly. And, and that will hopefully cement our position among fear currency is as a global currency, rather than as a cryptic currency asset. 

What does that look like? Can you tell us, I, 

I, well, I, if I did, I don’t think I’d do it justice. I think we’ll have to wait for the unveiling, but it is around about our community. If you look hard enough, but yes, new tickets go along with that is X, N O as well to be compliant. Nano Wella is obviously the currency in there, but I need to get X and a, and our current design will fit alongside X and a, 

I saw that you had a challenge coins as well. I’d seen that someone had made you some physical Nano. 

That’s true fan mail. It was such a treat. I’ve actually got one right here. 

That’s very cool. It’s bigger than I thought it would be actually. 

I mean, it’s weighty, it’s true. 

Quality. That is very cool. Obviously it doesn’t travel well on an audio podcast of course, but maybe we’ll save that for a video clip or we’ll put a picture up online. 

I think we’ll have to, but no, really sweet. And that’s all community made. That suit was gifted by another QB member to our team here in London. It was a lovely surprise walking to the office and finding that. 

Cause there’s a whole community marketplace as well as there, 

Is the community. Our community are just a force of nature. They’ve created a, an E-bay form for Nano, which we’re hoping to kind of help push out further, but it’s so wonderful to see the innovation within our community. That’s constantly invigorating. 

So how did that come around? Cause it, I mean, we talked about the silver before. I think I also noticed that not only do you have over a hundred thousand subscribers, but you’re also like number one on the growth chart for finance and business. Like, I mean, how’d you go about building such a fan base? I mean, where did that come from? We’re looking for tips. Yes. We’re looking for tips. Really. 

It really comes down to passion and a core principle. We, as an under community, is famous for its altruism for its passion and for its excitement, everyone is there to help each other. No, one’s there for their own greed. That’s really where the best ideas come from his true passion and being open to sharing your ideas. There’s no, bad projects or bad ideas that get shot down. Our community, everyone is fed back to by other community members. When we have the time and space, we try to as much as possible to lift those projects up. It is just purely down to having such a core principle, which is Nano, which is the rights over your own money and economic freedom. I think so that’s really, I think the secret sauce behind it also letting them letting a community really self police themselves, not try and take a step back. 

At the same time, we at the 90 foundation are just a part of the dynamic community. We’re really looking forward to moving into a lot more of an open source decentralized nature when it comes to the network to, 

Well, I was going to ask about that because on the technology side of things, how involved does the community get in the technology itself. 

On a varying degree with it’s with the community, there are some very talented developers and very talented people. And, and the multitude of ways when it comes to the node software that we would love to see a lot more of kind of, community contributions to the node software. That does require a very specific skills that, we aren’t in denial about how difficult that is. That is something that we are hoping to improve my documentation and improve in kind of how we can clarify and make it easier for developers to jump in and be a part of the network in that way and how to, set up a node, all those kind of instructional tutorials and getting them out further with a nice educational platform. 

Documentation, always a big problem in software development. 

It also for all the beautiful, but I think it could be clearer for, global translations and languages as well. 

I suppose it’s, if you’re getting contributors in and you’re actually trying to keep it to that such a low latency, cause I noticed you said about a 0.2 seconds for the transaction time, but it isn’t it around 2200 milliseconds, you were talking about latency. I think. 

It can be, it all really depends. We are, we’re going through a bit of a change at the moment. We are putting up some very novel and very exciting components into the non-insured software, which will be kind of in online’s the crypto 3.0 of what cryptocurrency could be, which is removing proof of work entirely. We are just about to me, for it to be a 23 and continue those improvements of those components. Moving forward. 

Include an increase in the transactions per second, because I’ve already seen as well that you’ve got somewhere in the region of 10 million transactions per second. 

I don’t know where you’ve seen that. We, 

I think he might’ve been that infographic. 

Welcome to your community. 

Someone’s very proud of that. Then they blow tested. 

Well, we have a currently around 70 TPS and that’s being kind of stable for around, I would say for around six weeks. Now, the only thing that’s holding us back from a higher to guest with Nano is bandwidth and resources and the algorithms that are in the network right now. There was actually no fiscal cap that can be on Nanos TPS. We are working towards making our algorithms that have some slow components in them right now, making them faster, more efficient. And we’ll be jumping up. Those TPS runs pretty quickly from then on that there is no limit to Nano’s TPS on that. 

First I think what’s interesting is that I noticed that Nano seems to being used within other things as well. I noticed on your subreddit today, cause I’ve been stalking it, there’s a gaming platform pokey that is starting to use that for microtransactions. Is that right? 

Yeah. And that’s exactly baby. What Nano to be Madden, due to Nanos fetus nature due to its speed, it has perfect for microtransactions. Our dream is that Nano is the kind of the money of the internet really and has the same speed as internet latency. There isn’t, there’s no reason why it can’t have that speed. What we’re looking for is exactly this as end game, micro-transactions or none, it actually, being utilized. We have actually an ex Nano foundation developer creates a unity 3d plugin for Nano, which is so exciting and opens up a whole realm of gaming industries. We community are all very excited about this wild, but we have spoken to razor the huge gaming company as of late. There’s a huge potential for Nano within the gaming world that we’re really keen to explore further. 

The whole technology seems quite unique or at least different to the original cryptocurrency technology. You talk about, moving away from proof of work and that stuff. There a way that I can use the Nanotechnology, but for a different application? So. 

The way that we’ve designed it is as just a pure currency. You would have to, if you were looking to use Nano in any other way, that would require you to fork Nano and change some of the fundamentals that we have installed within the network to make sure that it is truly as efficient as possible. There’s no smart contracts, there’s no fluff or anything else as layers on top of Nano, we focus on the protocol level of being as efficient as possible. Therefore it is a tool and as open floor to be used by others as they wish. Whether it’s in a closed loop economy and people need to make some tweak to manage to use that’s absolutely fine. You can go wild, but we are fixed and Nano being a true currency. Therefore all the work we’re doing on political level is to be as efficient as possible. 

Have you seen people Falk the coat basin and go in different directions? They have tried, have we had any successes? 

I haven’t seen any, no. I mean, we’ve had a few people try and fork Nano and still use of the currency and that’s failed a few times. I mean, there’s been so many years of work behind building these communities and build the kind of the team or, the ethos that we really live by. And that’s not as replicable as people. 

Yeah. I mean, from my perspective, I wasn’t thinking of it necessarily as a, forking and creating my own currency, although maybe we could have it that texture currency. I. 

Don’t think it would. 

I don’t think we’ve got a community. I think we’ll just push down to instead. 

I love correct answer, 

I think in terms of like actual applications that I might want to develop, for example, there’s an organization I’m working with at the moment where I could see an application for using that technology for fast transactions that are secure and safe, but really the blockchain technology that’s out there and available, perhaps, I know a theory is probably the closest thing that has a platform that you could use and, apply internally. I was just curious as to how that would be potentially applied because the thing that you’d be looking for is something that is as fast as you’re saying, Nano is. 

Yeah. I mean, you can always put a second layer on top of Nano, but on the protocol level, Nano has been as a second a design to be occurrence in the currency alone. We actually believe that there aren’t that many utilities of cryptocurrencies outside of being a pure currency, not the biggest supporter have say OBS smart contracts. I haven’t seen them be proven to work. Also in my mind, smart contracts do not take in the incumbent human behavior of the world. It does say you’ve got art on the blockchain and you’ve got a piece of art and you’re following it’s ownership throughout and just say it gets stolen. Fans again goes to court and goes to a human judge and they decide the actual, the ownership lies with this person. Now you have a wrong immutable ledger then forevermore. I don’t think that smart contracts and the ideology behind smart contracts has actually taken into account the human nature of how the world works currently. 

I think there’s a future for them, but not as a, 

Yeah, that’s a very good point because obviously I think people have really jumped on the bandwagon of NFTs earlier this year. I think there’s a lot of people thinking this is the new way that we deal with copyright, but you’re very right. It’s the, it’s the law, it’s the things that get decided in the courts that dictate what actually happens. And I suppose, yeah. How’d you fix the ledger? Cause the, cause the judges don’t know these things. I don’t think. 

Yeah, actually I think NFTs are a beautiful example of the Pythia of human nature. The, the act of wanting to own something to say you own it, but you don’t physically have. It is something that I think is inherent within us. As humans wants to say that we own something just for the sake of saying that we own it. That’s my view and NFTs personally. 

There’s some very crazy things up for sale on there. We’ve seen tweets, what else have we seen? Sam websites? 

Yeah. Christie’s have been doing a lot of NFT sales. I think they sell something for 60 million, not too long ago. It was just eye washing amounts of money. Yeah, we’ll see how far this goes. Really. I hope it doesn’t detract away from actually, the gig economy, artists, musicians, being able to actually feel empowered and owning the sale of their own work online in a tech less form. 

I mean, I think there’s a, there’s definitely, there’s potential for like the music side of things. It would be nice if you were able to remove some of those bad contracts, I’d say within the music world so that the artists actually owned their own stuff, 

Completely, and also, what, we’re some feel five projects. I’m going to say this out here in the hope that someone, a community jumps on this and takes it up, but we would love to create an Instagram live, filter a skin so that every time a musician does Instagram live, people can actually donate the money through a QR code, honest skin so that people can take the a hundred percent of their money as a donation rather than having to divvy it up to whoever, digital busking. Yeah, exactly. 

Upside down hat. Yep. 

Keep it. 

Well, absolutely. That sounds fun. That sounds fantastic. So, I mean also, am I right in thinking I’m going to check all my facts now cause I I’ve got the latency with the transaction one wrong 133 million Nano. Yes, that’s right. Cool. So how does that work then? How do you deal with having a fixed amount? 

The fixed amount is for deflationary purposes. If you look at a country such as Argentina with a 50% inflation rate every year as a normal person, your bank account whatever’s in a bank account is worth 50 cents less every year. That’s just a cannot work for global currency in our view. It had to be a fixed amount and now 133 million Nano that doesn’t sound like a lot of actually not what you’re not seeing. It’s 153 million times 10 to the 33. That’s 33 zeros on top of the 153 million. That’s why we are infinitely scalable. There are enough money out there when we feel that there has reached a, a critical mass of adoption decimalization will be looked at to move, manage so that we make sure that again, payment behaviors feels normal and you’re not paying for a coffee with north point, not to Nano or, three 3000, it needs to feel like it’s a normal currency and understood. 

That’s further in the future, but yes, there are 33 zeros that are hidden within that 133 million. 

Interesting. How’s that going to well, slightly assigned from that, but how are you prepared for rumors of global crypto regulation? 

We are, but we’re quite excited about it and the sense that so Nano is a non-security and we have a main jurisdictions. We’ve got legal opinions stating that in various different jurisdictions, whether it’s APAC us or UK or German law covering EDU with regulation, I think that there’s a need to regulate this wild west of a space that the currently is. I do think there needs to be, instead of looking at actually the regulation let’s look at actually, who are the regulators, are they totally informed of the space? Are they making correct decisions based on evidence and true factual research rather than what the media is spouting out or who has the most money to get in front of which lobbyists first. That is currently the state of play. What we’re trying to do is actually put ourselves forward and speak to regulators and go, there is a different way of doing this. 

There’s a way that empowers people yet is free. That is green, that is fast, and it has everything that you were looking for when it comes to global currency. There’s a time to work with regulators and make sure that we are creating a regulatory environment that actually increases and empowers innovation rather than stemming innovation, which I think most of the regulation is seen as to do. I think it’s up to us to try and change that environment moving forward, when it comes to regulation, currencies, 

Do you think that’s going to be an easy task or how’d you wedge into that? 

Just with a lot of gumption. So, and I actually invite those to a, a workshop with the FCA, if you have the day on purpose, just so that we can start getting our foot in the door, we’ve got, a lot of networks that we will have the opportunity to sit at round tables with various people and there’s lots to come, but I think, the lack of actual non-biased factual evidence on what Crips, the state of cryptocurrencies are and what the potential could be. Definitely. There’s a lot of work. 

I mean, they’re very, I think it’s probably a very different thing for us because of course I want to cover that you are the director, but you were previously the COO, right? You are now director, not because you are less important, you are a director because you decided collectively the two of you to change your title. 

We decided that it was, weren’t, it column was see you. And I was CEO. We weren’t firstly kind of really fulfilling that delineation of title entirely anyway, but actually it was a big step towards decentralization of what we deemed Nano and the Nano network to be. We did this and that titles about three weeks ago and decided that director was more akin to a foundational role such as we have at Nano foundation. I think I’ve been kicked by every mentor that I’ve ever had for doing such a thing, but actually it really speaks to the building blocks behind Nano and the direction that we’re looking to bring Nano to when Nano really is commercial grade. That’s really the time when we feel there is no any, nobody says it’s the wrong word, but there’s no final, huge, tweaks that we want to make the code to make it more efficient. 

We’re looking at that kind of early next year, we will shut down the foundation because Nano must be a truly decentralized currency to be deemed a global currency. We cannot as a foundation put ourselves first before that. We will offload and off shoots Nano as a full global currency of the world and shut down the foundation behind it with any kind of ongoing maintenance we’re looking at the Linux foundation model moving forward and columnae will always be involved in whatever we do. Nano will always be at the core of our hearts. We’ll continue working on that in our spare time. So you. 

Split it up and let it go. 

That’s the eventual plan. Yeah. 

Okay. That threw me for six. I think I want actually, I hadn’t really expected that. Does that mean that you were essentially expecting to complete the roadmap then, or that it’s then going into community developed roadmap? 

There’s a, there’s a limit to, there’s this, we don’t have that many changes to make really, to really deem Nano as truly commercial and ready for the big, bad world. We probably we’ve got via 23 coming up and we’re hoping to have that kind of competed. We all know how software works, so I’m not going to give any dates, but in a very new. 

We ready when it’s ready. Yeah, exactly. Well, the reason why I asked you originally about the question about the director is that there’s a couple of branches off this, right? The, the fact that you started this company together and you’ve created this foundation and now you’re going into meetings that, talking about global crypto regulation, that’s a, quite a departure in terms of how, where it starts to where it is now. Like how do you actually, it’s a very different thing. It’s a very different job. Like how comfortable are you shifting from that? Let’s create this thing to actually now we’re going to be a player on the global stage trying to regulate crypto. 

I personally love it. I have always had, and I’m sure we’ll go into this in a second, but I’ve always had a very interesting, I think career pathway, but with Nano it’s so clear, it’s so easy to feel passionate about it, that, the, all the hard work and the challenges seem to, do pay off. We all have our bad days and our good days, but I’ve been at Nano for three and a half years now and I’ll see Iowa for two of those two and a half. It’s a crazy world and it’s a challenge, but I think, kind of nine, definitely ready for that. Having kind of seeing how the space has evolved and matured over the last couple of years, we really feel that actually we have something to share and to help the space kind of moving forward when it comes to speaking to the right people. 

I think our ethos and trying to keep, and trying to really do what we said we’d do, which is help those in need, create financial global inclusion for all is something that, if you’re open to continuously learning, which we are, we’re also very open to be told that we could do better or we’ll do something wrong. How can we improve? They’re trying and getting more communicative around kind of that kind of side and going like, let’s do this together. We are not here for our personal gain. That has really helped us also column NY where we’re best friends and having, that’s unbreakable trust, unbreakable bond and doing this mad thing together. We often have to pinch ourselves to remind ourselves actually how global and how big this is. We can sit and whole bubble every now and again. I think that we have a normal life and it certainly is not. 

You are also a director, as you mentioned in Appia. Yep. That’s the, that’s one of these complimentary businesses. 

I started a couple of years ago. Actually, we got very tired with the infrastructure around cryptocurrency is not really catching up on the efficiency and the fee side compared to what were trying to create with Nano. So, we’ve got to fill this. No, no. For service and either end has a seven hour delay, no one gets to feel that benefits. Or if you’ve got a, a fearless, network, then you’ve got fees lacked on each and as well. We decided to actually jump ahead and try and create our own. And that’s where Appia was born. I think kind of got to be put our time and money into cloning ourselves because we have not been able to really dedicate as much time to apnea as we’d like, we’re really looking forward to expanding Appia further and later on this year, but the real beauty of what we’ve created actually are hardware modules. 

It’s a other module which has a couple of inches like a pretentious, but fits into any automated payment machine. It displays a QR code app here is crypto agnostic. We will actually be moving that purely to, but yeah, we don’t see a need for it to be agnostic anymore. With a new payment protocol, you actually have a merchant and customer certification process of that transaction, which needs to really happen in the crypto world. There’s a, you’ve got huge long addresses. You don’t know who you’re paying. To have that validation within the transaction, we felt was very important, but these modules, they have connectivity that there’s no other. They’ve got wifi connectivity up to 4g and then down to two D fallback. The purpose of these as they work, as hard as it, they work underground, they work anyway. You wouldn’t need them to work and will retail for around 50 to 70 euros where our nearest and pesto is at least 370 plus dollars. 

Now that’s not accessible for people to feel empowered as a much and given market stall or wherever to be able to accept crypto and move out of a cash society. That’s really what we’re trying to do at Appia. Really, I think the really exciting thing that gets me is these modules, they fit into vending machines. Thom machines are key points, but electric car charging points too, which obviously is a huge new technology infrastructure that has a huge backing behind it. That’s absolute necessity within the world currently. What I love to do and see are these modules being used within electric car charging points so that people can have the green and eco-friendly car pay with the agreed in an eco-friendly Nano using the Appia module to do such a thing. So that’s the dream there. 

Wow. And so that’s, again, something entirely different. You, you then moved into hardware development. We have, 

It’s a, it’s again been very interesting. It’s been a huge challenge in actually the manufacturing side and we have working prototypes right now. We haven’t moved into the full blown manufacturing side, just due to funding due to costs and the fact that it’s not our expertise. We’re trying and looking to find more people to help us on the journey of apnea, but obviously Nano comes first. 

As you’re going to have a platform, Appia will not let us say a platform, but a hardware platform called RPA that’s reliant on Nano once you’ve shut the foundation. What are the risks of the fact that you’ve shut the foundation and then your new business is reliant on the old one? 

Well, that’s not the currency is it’s such as currency in itself, so there’s no reliance on the Nano foundation for that. That’s the Alliance and the currency working and the currency. What, 

Do you see, do you foresee any risks in the shutting down of the foundation? I mean, I think it’s a beautiful idea to be able to shut the foundation down. I mean, realistically, that is the mission of every charity. We close our charities doors because actually the job is done and I’m not sure if there are any charities that I’ve ever done that. 

And, they will be the first, but, we are, we’re looking a lot changes that is obviously our end goal is start the foundation when Nano is that commercial grade. Once we’ve seen that to the Canberra global currency, there is no real need to have a foundation behind. It has to be decentralized to be truly global. What we see as what will secure the network are companies that all say wants to partake and use Nano will have a representative node, and therefore we’ll all help support and secure the network as Nanos commercial side grows as well. 

Okay. Well, I mean, let’s go back a bit, right? How, how did you get to this position? Because you went to the same university as me, you went to the university of Liverpool, I think you started the year I left, but however, I was vice president of the Guild of students. I know that you set up a Scrabble society and that does ring a bell. I’m not sure if we’ve actually met before. 

He may have no, it’s definitely been, it’s been a incredible journey and I definitely have one of the more UNnatural and uncouth. I think pathways become a director of such the foundation. I studied evolutionary anthropology at university. From there, I went to go and work in Madagascar for a while, working with limits and mapping by the best of Lima’s Avner staff, literal forest out there. Oh, they’re so cool. Unfortunately, Rio Tinto came in and demolished all the forests that we’re working in. That’s all gone in Madagascar, the joys of all of facts. From there, I was lucky enough to actually to travel. I’ve always been an artist as a hobby of mine, and I’m a stippler artist, the tiny little dots that make up the bigger picture. 

Oh, I love those. I’ve no idea how you even, I mean, I like a bit of to do a bit about myself, but I have no idea how you even start on that. 

I have no idea how I started a half, to be honest with you. I sat down one day and it happens and it felt very natural. I can kind of squint my eyes and see in tones. I just thought through that, which is all very peculiar, but I was lucky enough to travel for a fair bit after university and then came back and got a job in an advertising. And my clients were Greenpeace were . I was doing, as an account manager for all of them. One of my clients was, it was cancer research and they would email me and give me one to make a gift for our socials. Can you cough it up? I’ve crossed up and it would be something like three grand. I was the worst employee because I would email my other half at cancer research and go, just go on this link and you can do it for free. 

I’m not charting cancer research. You can do it yourself and I’ll show you how. I actually, I left two years the day of the advertising job and was lucky enough to have all the support that I could to be able to do that. I mean, with my career, this is what I kind of tried to say to so many other women and young people in this space is that, to have an exact, what I said, I needed to have that stone and to have that grit. That’s that inner wants of a challenge, can get you anywhere that you want to be and to get to there’s no restrictions other than yourself in trying to go after what you want for yourself or for, your wider career. You don’t have to be, I’ve always been an inner nerd. I’ve always loved technology, but I’m not a coder. 

I will hold my hands up and say, I wish I was. I really do, but I’m not. What I bring as a director alongside Colin is, how can a technology company, or as we are trying to create a global currency, how can we do so without taking in the first, so many other facets that make up that technology, whether it’s payment behaviors, the anthropological side of cultures and payments are so different all around the world, if we just had, coders creating these currencies and these new technologies and innovation, we wouldn’t be looking at muse ability so much, or how that could affect culture and change. I think, there always needs to be a balance within organizations and that’s what we’ve tried to create a new foundation. 

Well, I was going to ask you about that, cause you’re all seeing a judge in rising women in crypto. 

I am indeed. I was last year. 

Yes. And so how did that come about? And, and what’s that, well, tell us a bit more about that and what is that actually doing to try and is its intention to get more women into technology into crypto. 

It’s about shining a light on women in the tech space. I think, there’s so many voices that just are not heard for instance, when some of the, the vernacular that I’m trying to change is the difference between hard and soft skills. I don’t really believe that there is a delineation that, you can’t teach people how to be natural around other people, but isn’t a soft skill in my book. How can advertising or marketing operations be a soft skill compared to what others deem hard in the crypto space? We always get set up, bases, develop a team at dev team, less than half our team into the benefits. And, they’re, they don’t, there’s no visibility to everyone that creates their environment to allow the benefits, to do their best work and to create that final product with the women in crypto rising lists, rising powerless, that was the inaugural year. 

It’s a campaign by WebEx. I was very kindly asked to be a judge. We are very close with Y Rex as partners. And I know the team very well. We’d be working together for a while now. I’m quite vocal in the space around women and the need for a safe environments for women online. The abuse that is swept under the carpet far too often with this, they’re going to do a second year. They are yet to fully announce the campaign. Last year it was wonderful where it was all about recognizing the achievements of women and shining a light on those that might not be as visible as, the CEOs or whoever in a company who are so often celebrated. 

So, are there any general standard paths that people are following to get into, particularly from women? Are you seeing a difference between women and men in terms of the paths that they get, they fall, they follow to take, to get into technology? 

Well, I mean, we have put out so many job listings and this is kind of the best way to describe it. I think we have received one CV from a female developer in three and a half years. Wow. Really? I think this all comes back and stems from education and from school to make sure that women and girls understand that there are viable careers within technology and within the science and stem industries that you aren’t going to feel like, the one that stands out. So, I think we’ve all been to a lecture or class where you’re the only person, whether it’s down to gender or whether it’s down to this, you feel that you stick out and therefore potentially don’t feel as comfortable, or it’s such a novelty and how wonderful that you are there and the beautiful condescending manner that so many people use. 

I think it all definitely comes down to schooling and I’m really excited to see a mock or change even the three and a half years that I’ve been at Nano. I’m seeing a lot more visible female faces around. Actually our team is nearly 50, which is so exciting, but there’s a long way to go. I still get called a w***e constantly on LinkedIn, for instance, and the students had the goal to do that on a post of mine. I tagged as university and went, I’m sure they’re incredibly proud that you have written this on LinkedIn, this professional network that your career will be based upon, but it all comes down to the insecurities of people online, the account, the lack of accountability, the anonymous, this, the anonymous I’ve incident mixed with finance and therefore the, also the lack of education around trading financial security and all of that mixed in with a lot of insecurity of people and how we treat each other online is, it’s baffling. 

I mean, I’ve had my face deep faked on support and sense of various people. I’ve had Dr. Damages since on, it’s, it is, I’ve got an auction on four Chan of who gets to rape me first and that’s been online for three and a half years. I have petitioned to take it down by people, but I have no right. That, yeah. They have a right over my image and I don’t. There’s a lot to be done when it comes to, again, the regulation of the internet, I believe in free speech, of course, but where is the line of harassment? Where’s the line of abuse and where’s the line of internet accountability when people create these things. 

That’s incredible. I had no idea how you managed to, how you managed it, that you have to deal with so much with having something like that out there on the internet. 

Yep. All we’re trying to do is change the world for better. 

Absolutely. I mean, that’s been exactly the topic of conversation today. Hasn’t it? 

When I go and give talks to young girls at schools and they go, what’s it like, am I meant to be honest and open about my experience without sweeping under the carpet? Yes. Let’s, it’s all down to all of us. It’s down to men, women, and everyone to change this environment and stop pretending it doesn’t happen because it happens every day. My job now moving forward is making sure that no other women feel and have to deal with what I have dealt with in this space. 

How much do you think is general misogyny versus text specific misogyny? 

I it’s a toughy. I think there’s, it’s so intertwined. I think people, a lot of people like to just join them and they don’t understand the gravity of what actually what they’re saying. A lot of these people who are writing these things have daughters have wives, and that’s a separate light. Then they’d compartmentalize this abuse. Cause it’s not abuse. Cause we’re not real people. I’ve seen women have to go through similar things of what I have. That really was my turning point of going enough’s enough. Let’s talk about it. Let’s be honest about the horrendous things that are being said or been created online. It’s all under the guise of a joke. Therefore, that is then the gaslighting side of making a fuss about it. Because then I get told I’m playing the victim. I’m not what I’m doing is I’m showing that people are abusive. 

It was a very different thing. 

100%. I mean, I think that’s the, I suppose that’s the same sentiment that you’ve seen within Hollywood and everything that was around, specifically the Harvey Weinstein thing of like, it was just accepted that was a thing that happened and to ignore it and it’ll never change if you don’t speak up against. 

It, 

It requires such thick skin that I think has as a white man, as a white middle-class male, I just don’t really have enough of a, an appreciation for it because it must be so hard. I mean, I think we’ve all dealt with our own mental health battles, but I think it’s, I can’t imagine what it would be like to be in that position of trying to do something for the better of society in the form of Nano and then to have that stuff happen to you. It’s it’s, I wasn’t aware of any of that. 

I mean, for years I kept getting hounded by people going with, what do you do for Nano and all that kind of stuff. Enter to have to keep fighting for validation externally, while continuously challenging yourself with possibly one of the hardest times of the row, it’s just nipping global currency is exhausting. It’s definitely been a ton of fun. It’s definitely pushed me to my maximum, but I couldn’t have actually done this or survive this if I didn’t have the best support network that I have, I’ve got Colin as my business partner and best friend, and he has been a huge support behind all of this, but the learnings, the team, the community and my kind of my normal network, people still didn’t understand. I think the gravity of how some things can stay with someone, but again, my journey has happened. I am going to do my best to make sure that no one else has to go through this. 

That’s that decision that you have between being blatantly honest with, young girls who might be interested in a career in tech or trying to explain it, what, how do you tow that line? 

I’m actually, I’m asking for help on that. Actually, I have started to have conversations this week with various other women who do such talks and head up such organizations and trying to get girls into tech or fights and kind of the abusive side of the internet, and then asking how to make sure that I’m using the right language and using the right tone. Well, I’ll get to me across the severity of the situation, but also not putting people off at the same time. I’ve got an ask for help and I’m looking forward to hopefully getting better at tone, that line and finding the right way to get across that. This is such an exciting new world, and please be a part of it, just have your eyes open. And, we all, we’re all in this together, really men and women. 

Yeah. Well, I think it’s certainly something that we’ve tried to cover on the show as well. We would like to do more off in the future as well. Cause I think it’s so important that you have a balance as you’ve rightly pointed out some of the best engineers, developers, all the roles as well. I guess, of within tech of, the women have played a pivotal part in that. In fact, actually one of my first job in London was working for one of my second job in London actually was working for a consultancy that was all female project management consultancy. I was the first man hired. So that was an experience really. I think, from coming from a world where I wanted to be in project management at the time, and it was very male dominated, my dad was a project manager, bang your fist on the table and say, it must be done now, very different in a way to the agile way that is brought into the, into that. 

They’ve, I mean, that was headed up by a particularly strong woman, I have to say, but with great soft skills. To your point, how do those two things align the soft versus hard skills? I think it’s actually just being a nice person pop. 

I think that sleep, I know I, if I care about my team and I put their welfare first, I’m going to get the best work that I can from them. Cause they are enjoying their work. I mean, I come from a long line of FX traders. My mum was a trader. My dad was a trader and the whole of my family really are either doctors or ethics traders. I mean, look at the rise of Whitney Wolfe herd and Bumble and see is a great example here. She’s a force of nature, Bumble was born out of a sexual harassment case from her own company. 

Yeah. I only learned about that recently because we covered on the news show, the IPO that they went through, but it was only after that, I realized how it actually started. 

She, she was sexually harassed by her by the rest of her team that other founders and thrown out the company, having broken up with initial founder and then decided to put two fingers up and go and create Bumble, putting women first and look who has succeeded Bumble and not tender. So, by heralding women, such as her and seeing that, the pathways yes, that are, there is a bursty behind the creation of Bumble. There’s a bestie in my journey. That’s not, and that’s not necessary given the R hopefully by us kind of pushing through implying for, with so many, formidable women before us, if we can help along that journey to make sure that no one else, goes through this in the future or in the lesser degree, or just change the conversation narrative around these kinds of situations, then slowly that’s for a better world. 

Well, I think you talked before about, the school side of things and he changing in schools and they’re having to start there and it’s probably not just in that area as well. I think it’s probably media and things like that. If you go back to, there’s a hell of a lot of movies in the 1980s that always pushed, like the computer geek has been, glasses wearing, 

Like, 

The glasses wearing male geeks in the corner, and again, the male thing I think is important. They’re like, there’s a whole load of stuff there, but how do we go about changing that? How, what is happening to change the narrative and to encourage women to get involved with? 

I think it starts in early isn’t that have to say, it’s all down to look at the gender divide of, I’ve got two little nieces right now and I want to buy consistently. They are into archeology and dinosaurs and space. I cannot find a t-shirt, that’s not in the boys section that has a rocket or a dinosaur on it. Boys have building blocks and girls have princesses and dollies, and that’s how it starts. We are from a tiny early age shown that’s the pinnacle of success is to be a princess. The pinnacle of success with a boy is to build and be an engineer or make rockets and be an astronauts. That’s really where it starts and let’s change that narrative. Let’s see, what the difference of careers could come from that. I think also having to choose your career at 14, we need to use your DCIS either terrifying, and that’s also scary. 

I mean, I chose all sciences and that’s what I continued throughout my schooling. I did three sciences at any level and art, but that was unusual for me, that was unusual across my friends. They were all doing literature and all that kind of stuff, because they didn’t feel that they were strong enough in those sciences, whether that’s down to the teacher or environments, the schools. I really think it does come down to very early age learning and feeling like you, girls and boys in a different, I was lucky enough to go to an all boys school from seven to 13. I think that does change quite a lot of mine, understanding and development as who I am as a woman, I am incredibly forceful. I kind of stand my ground because I’ve had to, it was an all boys boarding school and I was the first girl and I loved. 

It. How did you get into that? 

It was, it was a local school. My brother was actually in their final year and they were turning to girls. I just happened to be the first one, but I mean, I was called George and I can climb trees and build a tree house. I can’t paint my nails, but does that make me less of a women, maybe a tumbling, so it’s, I think we need to stop and change the narrative from a very early age. 

That, has that already started or how do we start. 

As someone that doesn’t have kids? I have two little nieces. I’ve definitely seen a change, especially looking at how my brother has brought up his two little girls, loving dinosaurs and wanting to be astronauts. And, there’s definitely been a multiple and change and that, but that’s also down to conversations and I guess mothers and fathers, with very young children, feeling like they can have this conversations nice and openly with their friends who are in a similar position. 

It just feels like a thing that’s going to take a long time. 

It is. Let’s start and let’s see how we go. 

That sounds like a good plan. I mean, I was going to ask you as well, how does studying evolutionary anthropology? I didn’t even say that. Right. How does studying evolutionary anthropology? How has, how has the study of human behavior helped with your career progression? I think you may have answered that already. 

Oh, I’m glad you feel that way. I mean, in the most simple terms, I don’t know how we can create a global currency without taking and considering the anthropological aspect behind the foundation of payment behaviors and culture. 

Are you still as a company still looking for your calling as it, where you’ve got these core values that you have of trying to solve real problems, but does that mean, like you mentioned earlier about going to people and talking to them and finding out what their needs are, is that an active task that you’re constantly doing? Like, do you feel like you have a purpose and that Nano has its USP and that just involves constantly searching for different use cases? Or are you still looking for the right use case? 

We, I mean, interesting question. We actually, we are, as I said earlier, we take our time to make sure things are done properly. We’ve got two very large use cases that will be launched soon enough when they are ready. They really are fixing a problem within businesses that they could not fix themselves and only done can that be done? We will release them when they are ready and bullet proof with kind of with use cases, obviously anything that money touches and then they could touch and do better. Our minds anyway, we have a lot of work to be done, but also what we’re trying to do is empower the community to go and spread and grassroots and spread the word of Nano as well with the kind of two, three big things under our belt, we have got no qualms about a steady Nano volume and Nano actually being used for a long period of time, how we get across that chasm to being a global currency for the everyday user. 

That’s still a challenge that will continuously grow and we will continuously learn along the way. I think what’s important is that we are continuously agile to continuously learning and not thinking that we have the answer because I don’t think anyone does. 

That your personal kind of goal then, is that where you would want to see it as being ubiquitous among everywhere? 

I see that as we’ve been successful then yes, but even when we say a Reddit posts, for instance, someone india and our community, they saw, they lost a family member down to COVID at the beginning of the year. They decided to go out and hand out masks with Nano and they gave out 5,000 miles in one day, then the whole community donated to them and they continued their work. Now giving out big parcels of rice and sustenance to their own community. Now that is also success for us. For Nano, it proves that we’ve actually made a mock or change to someone’s life. What is the most amazing feeling that is? We’ll continuously try and encourage and do that. Again, it’s an ever changing landscape that we’re trying to navigate and we absolutely do not have all the answers to it, but we’re keen to keep learning. 

Yeah. 

‘cause like, there must be so many untapped ways you can use Nano. Right. And, and your almost limited to your own kind of ideas like, oh, we could use it here. We like, how do you go about finding those untapped resource or places, or, are you inviting people to come forward with their ideas? Like open competitions kind of thing. 

It’s definitely exhausting for sure. But it’s amazing. The people that have come out of the woodwork, especially this year who had up very large companies and go, I’ve been watching you guys for years. Actually what I’ve seen you go through this year and overcome those challenges have made me actually finally want to reach out. Instead of going to be what Nano to be included in this, how can I help you get Nano’s to the state that you want to get? 92, 2 of them have it in that place. That that’s what we’re all about is it is so much more than a currency. I hate this Kesha term, but it really is a movement of community. I think that’s what we’ve been able to prove on a global scale with minimal resources is that the passion behind changing the world and the passion and the drive behind altruism is far overlooked in commercial terms. 

Actually the power of altruism the world is dying for and in need of a bit of love and a bit of sharing and a bit of humanity and not looking for oneself consistently. And that really has worked. I think the Nano community has shown to further a field, whether it’s, someone in our community did a talk at, been in university in Nigeria a couple of weeks ago. That was tweets that the whole community jumped in and through we Nano, which is one of the best apps ever it’s Pokemon go. With Nano’s, remember, everyone’s running around with the phones, AI, pick them up, go, you can actually run around with your phone through AI and pick up free Nano. That’s all been donated by other people within the community. That’s cool. It’s so cool. I, a hundred percent recommend downloading it. I’m going to do. 

That right after the show. 

Thing. Yeah. That would be a spots dropped around. If you see math in the map, you’ll see the whole world is covered with people sharing Nano. This person did this talk at any university in the community, dropped spots everywhere, and that allowed all the students, as who wanted to go and pick up their first Nano for free and partake in this empowerment, that is Nano, 

Did you, did you develop the app or did you. 

Know community-based, it’s incredible. Even better as we a new business. If you’re a format and you can set up a spot and people can pay you for your goods in WeNano business at that spot. If you brought up to fear to, if you won’t stand Nano it’s honestly, it’s, mind-blowingly cool. I, a hundred percent recommend. 

That person who did the talk, did that, was that a talk about Nano or was it just, did they, 

Yeah, it was about cryptocurrency and then Nano on top and how it’s slightly different. That person is actually from Nigeria anyway. And all I can mix organic. We’ve never paid for a social post. We’ve never paid for any true marketing and all our communities are truly organic, which is just beautiful. I can’t describe it in any other way. Really. It’s quite amazing. 

Yeah, I’m ready. It’s the easiest representation of that because Reddit is just such a wow. It’s so community, are there any other cryptocurrencies that are using Reddit as successfully as you? 

I don’t know. I have to say we are so razor focused with all goals. We actually, were trying to remove ourselves as you from the cryptocurrency space. We don’t really feel that we are a crypto currency. We are just digital money, simple, nothing more, nothing less. We are obviously a non project if we don’t really fit into. We’re not, we’re not really a tree in a trading asset. That’s where we are putting Nano. Offset is traded, depended on the markets in that way, but that’s really not what brings people to us. I’ve read it. It’s so much more, it’s really about humanity and changing it, which is quite amazing. Yeah. 

Can I ask you a. 

Personal question? Yes, you can. What did you want to. 

Be when you’re in your six. 

Noah? Hi. I always wants to be a vet. Always, always. I know, not as exciting as a, as people think, but I always wants to be a vet or an architect. I was when I was about six or seven, nine of wished that I was older and to be a more of an adult. Once you get there, what I do to go back, I’m going to turn that around. What did you both want to be when you were younger? 

I think I wanted to be a fireman. Yeah. Yeah. Either that or a train driver. Yeah. I wanted it to be a racing driver. 

Oh yeah. I still want to be a racing driver. 

Well, it was for bar for awhile. 

I’m a huge F1 net. So I love cars. Yeah, 

Me too. I’ve recently got into watching a, I bought a subscription so I can watch F1 through a VPN. And, and now, because I have that subscription, I’ve been watching indie car NASCAR. Absolutely. 

Yeah. We can. The quality of slightly in my books, I have to say, 

I have gone into, I have gone into the Indy car a bit though. I do quite like it because there’s a lot of overtaking. There’s a lot of thinking. It’s, it’s quite good racing. Although I really do like the innovation I’ve always loved the technical innovation in formula one. Yeah. 

That’s it. It’s amazing. Actually the pit stops, I just find are possibly the most efficiently organized. I’d find it. Oh yeah. 

The soup to second pit stops that red bull have been knocking out. There’s a, there’s a really good example of a, my, one of my tech mentors is you use this as an example in various talks before where he talks about how pit stops were done in the 1950s versus how they’re done now. And he plays the two videos. It’s on YouTube about how the second. 

Can look that up. 

I’ll send you a link, but it’s a, it’s basically a pit stop in the 19 in like the 1950s. It takes them over a minute to change the tires and then it goes, and now they’re gone. It’s insane how it’s changed because it’s just people in that respect. It’s not just, that’s a purely people focus thing. 

Just, I think that the concept of how to make things more and more efficient, that is through and through. And yeah, no, I find absolutely fascinating. Please do send me. 

Yeah, I’ll take it out. I’ll send it. So go. Sam, what did you want to be? I want, I wanted to be an actor and then they. 

Told me forget about it. 

He taught you to forget about it, 

The person who did the interview about what I want to do when I’m older. So yeah. So I didn’t pursue that then, 

But now podcasting, you know, it’s not. 

Far off, there’s an entertainment aspect to it. 

Exactly. Especially when you get drunk and do the new show. Well, I have to say, this has been an experience. This talk. 

There’s been ups and downs. There’s been. 

All around. Yeah, exactly. Well, 

No, absolutely. Thank you very much for coming on and talking to us, I thought it would be an interesting chat and it certainly has been just that. Thank you very much for being on the show. 

That’s all. Thank you very much for having me. It’s been great to tell my side of the story . So thank you very much that.